State champions West Islip and Manhasset finished the season ranked first and second, respectively, in the final Under Armour/Inside Lacrosse High School Power Rankings for the 2010 season.
CHSAA champion St. Anthony’s checks in at No. 8.
You can check the complete rankings by clicking here.
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Can’t see how any one-loss team beats out an undefeated team. It’s actually worse in my view that the loss was to a team considered middling. This is BCS-ism logic, which we all thought was a function of economics, TV ratings and things not based on the field. The argument for West islip is the same made by the MIAA teams, i.e. so what if we lost, we’re still better anyway. What was Manhasset supposed to do? Their schedule is every bit as difficult as West Islip’s. Are they to run up the score on middling opponents to be more “dominant”? That’s not lacrosse.
Manhasset, and others, won all their games this year. West Islip didn’t. How that translates to West Islip being the best team in the country in 2010 is illogical, even Mr. Spock knows that.
the logic is fairly easy, who would win if they played…….West Islip by 5-6 goals
Judging by Set scare vs CSH in playoffs I have to agree WI would win, but maybe by 3-4 goals?
One loss by WI 1st game of season? They’re #1 for sure!
Forget the Ca, Tx, Mich teams. Very good teams but can’t be seriously ranked given their week by week competition does not compare with others in traditional lacrosse areas. Not trying to be tough. Just a fact that can’t be denied.
Apart from these teams at least UA finally has come up with a list that for the most part (yeah there are still arguments) passes the “smell test”. This versus earlier rankings that clearly had teams included which everyone knew in their “gut” did not belong.
I think the Set defense would be the difference.
Set 9, WI 8
So dreaming up fantasy scenarios about a game that will never be played should be a superior way to choose a #1 than actual win-loss records?
Let’s put the question this way: How many losses could West Islip have before they could not be considered for #1 while other teams go undefeated? Two? Three? There’s plenty of people who think St. Paul’s of the MIAA should be #1 with four losses. Why isn’t Jamesville-DeWitt #1 then, if Manhasset is so lousy for an undefeated New York State champion. I suppose they stink too, and don’t play anybody, and blah blah blah.
Losing one game on March 26th is extremely irrelevant. If WI played Sachem North now, they would win by 10. They are a deserving #1, and would beat Manhasset 8 or 9 out of 10 times if they played.
WI SOS was far more challenging than Manhasset….especially in the playoffs…
Looking at common opponents…although not the best indicator….that too favors WI…
The loss to SN, the first game of the season and in OT no less, was an anomially….something that WI wiped clean thereafter….the Lions appeared to get even better as the season wore on….by the end….they where dismantling the top teams in Class A….
And let’s discuss the Lion Offense….they have five guys that can score…and two that can assist from anywhere on the field…..may have been one of the best ever in Long Island Lax history….the only one that I have seen that rivals it (probably even a bit better) was the Huntington teams a few years back….
Unfortunately for the Indians they compete in Class C….and no matter how you argue it….Class C is not as challenging as Class A day in and day out…
…..so with all that being said….the argument is the Indian’s….should be #1….because WI lost their first game in OT….even when all the other tangibles go the Lions way?
IMHO…that’s not a strong enough argument….If the Lions lost 2…or where closely challenged in many of there other games….I would say the argument has merit….but given what the Lions did after the first game…..well…..I think it speaks for itself….
Congratulations Lions…a well deserved #1 IMHO….
So why isn’t St. Paul’s #1, if SOS and peaking at the end of the year is more important than going undefeated? They’d destroy West Islip, right? Those arguments are impossible to prove or disprove. 20-0 stands for all time. Sorry, winning ALL your games matters more in sports than “I saw them and they’re soooo awesome, they’d beat [whoever] by [whatever]”. You don’t get to say, “when they lost it doesn’t matter, but all their wins matter.”
Manhasset is the clear #1, no question.
UA should not rank the teams but just put in the top 20 teams in the country. Or even just do it by region and not rank nationally. There is no objective basis for teams from different areas playing different teams and then being numerically ranked vs each other!! NO ONE KNOWS how WI would do vs St.Pauls or Manhasatt vs Conestoga, etc, etc, etc. All the rankings do is lead to endless debate about why someone is #1 vs # vs 5.
But everyone from this region (inc. upstate NY) can probably objectively agree (except Lax Novice) that WI is the #1 team in the NY/CT/LI region. Frankly JDW and Sett are very close to each other for #2 and #3!
Let the Balt. people debate about their region.
20-0 is 20-0. One loss doesn’t go away because they looked so good late as lax novice said. You are what your record what your record said you are. Please, please stop with the “WI would win by 5, WI would win 8 or 9 out of 10”, cmon LI Lax, expect more out of you. Set is 20-0. They WIN. Don’t discount the will to win, especially when nobody beat them and certainly nobody in the allmighty Suffolk A would have either. Enough with that crap. Overrated. Please go outside your conference and prove it. Undefeated state champs. Enough said.
my son’s PAL team went undefeated this year……..maybe they should be #1
I’ll bet if they did go undefeated but they gave the trophy to the team with one loss you’d be the first to complain.
yes blaxdog, if the other teams had a loss, then they should be #1 in your PAL league…thats exactly the point
For those that espouse Manhasset is #1…please support your argument with something other than they were 20-0….that is not overwhelmingly convincing argument given they and WI played in different conferences….
I’ve pointed out that WI’s SOS during the regular season, and more prominently during the playoffs, was rated higher than the Indians by almost every major LAX organization…
In addition, although less tangible, scores against common opponents easily were in favor of the Lions…..
Yet all I hear from the Indian contingent is that Manhasset is undefeated…..well….that’s great….but what else do you bring to the debate…?
saw them both too. Manhasset would dominate draws and WI wouldn’t get the ball back so easily because Set is great at clearing and running their offense. Manhasset has the best close D, an excellent goalie and great midfield defense…WI is good but not great on defense.
It would be close but Manhasset would win 10-8.
And to all the people saying a loss doesn’t count…why not? Especially when you consider who they lost to….Manhasset played at least 10 teams better than SN
T54
WI’s SOS being better then Sett + scores vs common opponents better then Sett’!!
Come on folks– End of debate in favor of WI!!
Here’s the short answer to T54 and others who think West Islip is the best HS team in the US this past 2010 season – YOU LOST A GAME THAT COUNTS.
Since you lost, and someone every bit as excellent as you won every game on their schedule, no amount of dreaming and conjuring and stat-crunching changes the fact that the undefeated team had a better season than you did, so you cannot be #1, simple as that.
The point isn’t so much Manhassett v. West Islip, it’s that there are thousands of high school programs around the country, and in my view the first cut is to eliminate all of the teams with one loss or more, no matter where they play. The reason for this is simple, we’re talking about the #1 team in terms of RESULTS, not talent, not D1 recruits, not how many guys are on the “best” summer team and so forth. Even in West Islip they know that undefeated is better than one-loss, I think. What is NOT RELEVANT is whether a one loss team might, maybe, in some fantasy Rotisserie league come out ahead of just about every undefeated team. Then you would have to consider the MIAA and whether a matchup of the top school is what most everyone agrees is the premier conference in the country is better than your one-loss school. In my view, we eliminate all of those schools with losses until we see who has gone undefeated.
Then we look at who is undefeated and consider who among those might prevail in the “what-if” argument, i.e. who plays a top schedule, which basically narrows the field down to a very few in “hotbed leagues”. This would be the usual suspects, including NY B and C. Thus the answer really comes down to Manhasset v. Jamesville DeWitt. From there I think the choice is clearly Manhasset, due to SOS and the lack of close calls throughout their undefeated season.
What I think people are getting caught up in are local LI bragging rights as much as anything else. There is an entire new thread to post on who you think might have won this hypothetical matchup and that’s terrific for those who are passionate about what that game MIGHT have produced. But in order to be #1 at the end of the season you need at the very least to be perfect throughout the season. Sorry, but that’s the standard. Otherwise you have all these other schools around the country with one, two, three and four losses sayiing they’re number 1 for the same subjective reasons WI supporters claim that they are – those guys don’t play anybody, etc etc.
Lastly, while it might be great to say someone is #1, obviously its what happens in the actual State Championships and local leagues that truly matters. That is where West Islip can say with pride that they can stand with JD and Manhassett, they met their team goal of winning NYS – A again, and once the postseason starts you can’t ask for more than that.
or West Islip could just open up this months Inside Lacrosse magazine and see that they are in fact ranked #1 in the country……..
Novice –
I do not take into account the number of D1 athlete’s on each team….nor do I fantasize about some fictitious match-up that hasn’t occurred….nor have I stated that Manhasset hasn’t played anyone…look at my posts…..
I attempt to look at real points….SOS, W/L, and common opponents to gage a the best measurement I can….
From your posts you do not….you just eliminate any team that is not undefeated….
For example…If WI had no loses and the winner in MIAA had only 1…and than went on to soundly defeat the remainder of their opponents…I could see the #1 spot being given it them….the SOS would make a strong case for it….and if they played common opponents and prevailed there also….well that could be a secondary measurement to base the opinion on…albeit, as I’ve said many times over, a less tangible one….but actually, IMHO, stronger than eliminating all teams that are not undefeated….
Your argument simply comes down to only undefeated(s) being considered for #1… which I think is weak….and generally not acceptable to most….
I know you feel slighted….but maybe I would too if the MIAA/WI scenario would occur….but I wouldn’t take it as personally….In fact, if the Indians get the nod over Lions in other publications I will understand….because in the scheme of things it really isn’t that important…
In the end, both teams are very talented and well coached…..both have risen to a state of excellence in 2010…..they both should be very proud of their accomplishments regardless of what rating is given by a publication….
It’s only HS kids playing their hearts out for a game they love…and to me…that’s what really counts…and why I truly appreciate it at this level….
Don’t read into whether I am slighted or not. This is simply a discussion about how one defines the standard for determining who may be the country’s best HS lacrosse team, it’s not all that important in the greater scheme of things. To me, 20-0 is better than 22-1 when you consider that the teams are rather equal, but that may not be the case with the new math taught today.
I haven’t yet read a logical counter argument to kr’s post #17 in which he points out that Manhasset’s strengths are WI’s weakness, and infers that Manhasset’s ability to limit the unsettled transition situations where WI is so deadly would ultimately lead to a Manhasset victory. But then that would go against the grain of the strongest argument in favor of WI, which is that Manhasset would simply faint that the mere sight of the famous Lions and defer to their obvious superiority. Sachem North didn’t get that memo, but their victory carries no weight, apparently.
Come to think of it, I should get some T-Shirts printed up with “I BEAT #1” and sell them around Sachem and all the LI summer lax tournaments this July. Then I’ll feel less slighted.
Novice –
KR’s points are based on conjecture and opinion….about fictitious match-up that has not and will not occur…although very well taken…there is no way to substantiate it….
….and like I said, and you yourself have mentioned many times over, it really is not the best way to evaluate a ranking….
T54 – i’m not sure i see this SoS advantage you refer to. Here’s a comparison of the top teams they each played and I go about 7 deep because after that it becomes noise:
MANHASSET:
– Chaminade
– Garden City
– Darien
– John Jay
– CSH (2x)
– Corning East
– South Side
WEST ISLIP:
– Chaminade
– Fairport
– Lakeland Panas
– Ward Melville (2x)
– Smithtown West
– Farmingdale
– Connetquot
I don’t see how WI’s list is superior to Manhasset, in fact I’d call it inferior. If you want to say the rest of the schedule balances it out fine, I still think who you play at the top is more meaningful. At the very least it’s not a swing factor.
I agree analyzing a mythical game is just fiction, but to me that’s really the argument for WI…that their offense and ride are so dominant it would overwhelm Manhasset in a head to head matchup.
I happen to think the WI people have a case for #1. Having watched them both a lot I don’t personally believe in it myself but it’s certainly debatable and there’s no denying the greatness of that offense. I do get the sense reading these comments a lot of WI people have not seen Manhasset play.
But if you’re going strictly by stats and SoS then it’s not really an argument – WI lost to an average team with a similar SoS.
Total SOS on Laxpower – WI is #50, Manhasset is #89….not sure it includes Playoff opponents…..
Looking at Playoffs exclusive……WI smokes Manhasset….
Manhasset:
Seaford 93.0
Cold Spring Harbor 97.8
John Glenn – Elwood 96.1
Putnam Valley 95.0
Corning East 96.7
WI
Walt Whitman 96.1
Connetquot 98.0
Ward Melville 98.5
Farmingdale 98.2
Lakeland/Panas 98.2
Fairport 99.4
KR –
BTW, I believe most on the WI list would defeat all the Manhasset opponents you listed with the exception of GC and Chaminade…those would be interesting games….
Yes I know JJ beat L/P….but in a close 1 goal game….same with SW vs. GC…another close 1 goal game….
Just my opinion…
BTW, I’ve seen Manhasset on several occassions…..Manhasset hasn’t played anyone near to the capabilities of WI….
Laxpower just put out their final rankings ……..West Islip #1 in Coaches Poll with 30 1st place votes, and Computer rankings……..Sett #2 in both
the coach’s poll is the one i respect the most…much more than IL. congrats to WI for the national title, and congrats to both squads on putting together a great year.
T54 – we could probably go back and forth, it’s unnecessary imo. both teams are very close to each other. I have no problem with WI being recognized as I’ve said before.
KR –
I agree….either could be rated #1…it really is that close….
And like many have said….I would love to see them go at it….
Can’t believe Inside Lacrosse ranked Corning East among Top 25 in the country. That’s crazy
Why Corning almost beat jj. JJ was luck to win the game.
Corning East was just not a good team. JJ had a lot of injuries when they played them and still won